From: me22over7@gmail.com   
      
   On 28/12/2025 1:22 am, John Harshman wrote:   
   > On 12/27/25 3:27 AM, MarkE wrote:   
   >> On 24/12/2025 7:27 am, John Harshman wrote:   
   >>> On 12/22/25 11:16 PM, MarkE wrote:   
   >>>> This is a rejection of gene-centric causal supremacy, and an   
   >>>> argument for multi-level, bidirectional causation and information   
   >>>> sourcing. The cell (zygote in the first instance) in its entirety   
   >>>> e.g. proteins, RNA, sugars etc and their structural arrangement   
   >>>> (cytoplasm, organelles, membrane etc) and interactions regulate and   
   >>>> control gene expression. The distribution of these in the cell   
   >>>> represent essential "analogue" information. That's where I think the   
   >>>> unaccounted information is to be found.   
   >>>   
   >>> That doesn't work. For one thing, almost all the information about   
   >>> different sorts of cells doesn't reach the germ line, other than   
   >>> through the genome that gives rise to those sorts. The ovum does   
   >>> contain certain maternal proteins and transcripts that help to get   
   >>> development going, but those are specified by the maternal genome,   
   >>> and the rest of the zygote's cellular contents are quickly recycles   
   >>> using transcription and translation from the zygote's genome. Whether   
   >>> a zygote turns into a chimp or a human is determined by the contents   
   >>> of its genome, not all that other stuff.   
   >>>   
   >>> You're just avoiding the question, which I will repeat:   
   >>>   
   >>> But how many genetic changes do you think were necessary to turn the   
   >>> human-chimp ancestor into a modern human? Give me a ballpark.   
   >>>   
   >>   
   >> Much more than "a few thousand", i.e. orders of magnitude.   
   >   
   > Where could this be found in the genome, then? Remember that the cell's   
   > protein and RNA contents have their origin int he genome. Where else,   
   > then, could this information be stored?   
      
   I'm deducing extra-genetic information, i.e. the ovum in its entirety.   
   See my recent response to EM.   
      
   >   
   >> But don't avoid the undergirding question I'm asking: what is the   
   >> total and necessary information content of the zygote to produce a human?   
   >>   
   >> You seem to be asserting that just the functional genome is   
   >> sufficient, i.e. ~80 megabytes. Am I understanding you correctly?   
   >   
   > If we consider the entire (haploid) functional genome, that's about 10%   
   > of 3 billion bases, which would be, at 4 bases per byte, about 80   
   > megabytes. Sure. What else is there?   
   >   
   > And why is that relevant to the difference between chimps and humans?   
   > The difference in the functional part of the genome is less than 1%, so   
   > that's 1% (being generous) of 10%, or 3 million bases, the great   
   > majority of which are themselves likely not to matter, for example 3rd   
   > position transitions in exons.   
      
   It seems we need to try to establish the information amount and location   
   for a chimp or human zygote first.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)