From: rokimoto557@gmail.com   
      
   On 12/29/2025 5:21 PM, MarkE wrote:   
   > On 29/12/2025 4:33 am, RonO wrote:   
   >> On 12/28/2025 8:01 AM, jillery wrote:   
   >>> On Wed, 24 Dec 2025 21:07:17 -0600, RonO    
   >>> wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>> On 12/24/2025 5:32 PM, sticks wrote:   
   >>>>> On 12/24/2025 12:31 PM, RonO wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>> Merry Christmas and best wishes for the new year.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> ---snip---   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> Sad really that you couldn't have just stopped here with your   
   >>>>> followup,   
   >>>>> but instead had to once again inject this obsession of yours into even   
   >>>>> this.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> In 2026 TO will be 40.  Snipping out the relevant history doesn't   
   >>>> change   
   >>>> reality.  It is just a fact that the Supreme court decision should have   
   >>>> been the end of the creationist denial stupidity, but it just caused   
   >>>> the   
   >>>> name change of creationism to intelligent design, and that court   
   >>>> decision occurred just one year after TO started.  Creationists in   
   >>>> denial like yourself and MarkE have been beating a dead horse for   
   >>>> nearly   
   >>>> as long as TO has existed.   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Ron Okimoto   
   >>>   
   >>>   
   >>> To give credit where it's due, it could reasonably be argued that   
   >>> Creationists are responsible for T.O.'s existence.   
   >>>   
   >>   
   >> There probably is no doubt that TO would not exist if it were not for   
   >> Biblical creationists.  They were satisfied with banning biological   
   >> evolution from the public schools, but after Sputnik and the   
   >> subsequent improvements in public school science textbooks, along with   
   >> the reversal of the bans, anti evolution became more public.  Even   
   >> after the failure of teaching scientific creationism in Arkansas the   
   >> creationists just became worse in terms of the whackos posting to real   
   >> science groups. They never had any valid science to discuss, and TO   
   >> gave them a forum to be shown how bogus their views were without   
   >> bothering serious science. A lot of them were much better than any   
   >> IDiots ever were in terms of presenting their arguments.  Initially   
   >> you had creationists trying to support their Biblical beliefs   
   >> directly.  They were trying to justify a global flood, and young   
   >> earth.  With the abject failure of these attempts TO started to get   
   >> more of the switch scam denial type arguments that were in the Gish   
   >> Gallop along with the continued efforts to support the Bible.  This   
   >> persisted until the turn of the century.  The ID scam first came to TO   
   >> in the 1990's as something that the creationists wanted to teach in   
   >> the public schools, but no one seemed to know what the ID science was,   
   >> but the stupid claims to support things like the Biblical flood   
   >> persisted into the new century.   
   >>   
   >> The ID perps formed the ISCID (ID science organization) and it was   
   >> active until the bait and switch started to go down in 2002.  The last   
   >> paper that I recall being put up was in 2003, and the site was   
   >> moribund until Dover hit the fan and the ID perps reformated the   
   >> site.  One of the papers removed was the flood geology paper (Yes, a   
   >> Biblical flood geology research paper had been put up on the ISCID   
   >> site) that had been up on the site for years, but it didn't make the   
   >> cut when the site was reformated in 2005.  The ID perps dissolved   
   >> their science organization in 2008 likely because ID perps were likely   
   >> the only members left.   
   >>   
   >> Philip Johnson posted to TO in the late 1990's, but he never discussed   
   >> any ID science.  His denial claims were about the inadequacies of   
   >> Darwinism.  The ID scam would not become the major topic of TO until   
   >> after the Bait and Switch first went down in 2002, when every one with   
   >> a clue knew that it was just a worthless scam.  Really, after the bait   
   >> and switch started to go down Mike Gene claimed that he had given up   
   >> on teaching the junk back in 1999, but he still supported using ID as   
   >> bait until after the failure in Dover.   
   >>   
   >> The Supreme Court ruling against creation science occurred just a year   
   >> after TO started, and resulted in the name change from creationism to   
   >> intelligent design years before the ID scam unit at the Discovery   
   >> Institute would be founded in 1995.  That is all just history.   
   >>   
   >> Ron Okimoto   
   >>   
   >   
   > RonO MO on TO:   
   >   
   > Repetitively disparage, dismiss and accuse of fraud and deception   
   > creationism and individual creationists, especially in relation to ID.   
      
   Name a single honest ID perp that has ever existed.  How many objected   
   and resigned when the ID perps began running the bait and switch instead   
   of delivering any ID science to teach in the public schools?  Meyer was   
   director of the ID scam, was the head cheerleader for teaching it in the   
   public schools and personally ran the first bait and switch on the Ohio   
   rubes back in 2002 to start to make the bait and switch a reality.   
   Nelson only started justifying the bait and switch effort by claiming   
   that the ID science had never existed, but they were working on   
   developing some.  He didn't quit the Wedge efforts in disgust, but kept   
   supporting ID as bait.  None of the ID perps quit the ID scam when the   
   bait and switch started.   
      
      
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