From: me22over7@gmail.com   
      
   On 18/01/2026 3:50 am, RonO wrote:   
   > On 1/16/2026 11:27 PM, MarkE wrote:   
   >> On 17/01/2026 3:26 am, RonO wrote:   
   >>> On 1/15/2026 7:27 PM, MarkE wrote:   
   >>>> On 15/01/2026 3:01 pm, RonO wrote:   
   >>>>> On 1/14/2026 7:49 PM, MarkE wrote:   
   >>>>>> On 15/01/2026 12:41 pm, MarkE wrote:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>    
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> Would this be an accurate assessment of where our discussion is at?   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> With your position, you are in effect affirming the so-called   
   >>>>>>> central dogma of biology, i.e. information flows sequentially   
   >>>>>>> from DNA → RNA → protein, and not in reverse.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> I'm suggesting instead something along the lines of Dennis Noble.   
   >>>>>>> If I understand correctly, he accepts this biochemical pipeline,   
   >>>>>>> but rejects that DNA is the primary or privileged source of   
   >>>>>>> biological causation. Rather, he argues that biological systems   
   >>>>>>> are causally bidirectional and distributed across multiple levels   
   >>>>>>> of organisation.   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>> If Noble was shown to be right, would my logic then be valid?   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> PS   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> AI summarises nicely why this matters:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> * Why This Is Devastating to Gene-Centric Darwinism   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Traditional Darwinism assumes:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Mutations in DNA → changes in proteins → changes in traits →   
   >>>>>> selection   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Noble shows that causation also runs:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> physiology → cellular state → chromatin structure → gene   
   >>>>>> expression → mutation bias   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> So the genome is not an independent driver; it is embedded in a   
   >>>>>> self- regulating system.   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> This means:   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Evolution does not act only on genes   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Development does not read a script   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> Information is not stored only in DNA   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>> The fertilized egg already contains a rich informational   
   >>>>>> architecture that Darwinism never explains.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> This is just wrong about Darwinism if what is being claimed is just   
   >>>>> evolution by natural selection.  Natural selection selects on the   
   >>>>> whole organism.  Any genetic change has to work within the system   
   >>>>> that is already working in order to produce an organism that has a   
   >>>>> viable chance of being selected for.  This means that the genome   
   >>>>> has never been an independent driver of natural selection.  Every   
   >>>>> genetic change has to work with the existing cellular information   
   >>>>> in order to correctly replicate and for the successful development   
   >>>>> of an individual from a single fertilized egg cell.  This just   
   >>>>> means that the genome has never been expected to be an independent   
   >>>>> driver of biological evolution.  It has always been known that the   
   >>>>> genome has to function in a functional cell.  If that is all Noble   
   >>>>> is claiming then he isn't claiming much of anything that is going   
   >>>>> to help you at all. All it means is that the ID perps and you are   
   >>>>> not dealing with the information that you need to be dealing with,   
   >>>>> and you will not be dealing with that information in any meaningful   
   >>>>> way because you can't quantify it and you can't even identify what   
   >>>>> a lot of it is.   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> Ron Okimoto   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>>    
   >>>>>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Noble (and conventional biology, according to your assertion) say   
   >>>> that "biological systems are causally bidirectional and distributed   
   >>>> across multiple levels of organisation", i.e. the causal/control   
   >>>> flow is   
   >>>>   
   >>>>     -> protein -> DNA -> mRNA ->   
   >>>>    |                            |   
   >>>>     --------------<-------------   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Regardless of evolution, "digital" information is stored in the DNA   
   >>>> (and RNA), and "analogue" information is stored in the proteins (and   
   >>>> cytoplasm, organelles, membrane, sugars etc).   
   >>>   
   >>> Why do you keep insisting that the information is digital?  Digital   
   >>> programing was cooked up to transfer information, but life has it's   
   >>> own information transfer system.  It is the chemistry and physical   
   >>> properties of the matter involved.  That is what you are missing in   
   >>> your protein to DNA to mRNA to protein scenario.  It is what makes   
   >>> the cell, the literal structure and chemical make up of the cell,   
   >>> that the DNA requires to replicate new cells and develop new types of   
   >>> cells.   
   >>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>> Yes, DNA codes directly for proteins in a way that protein does not   
   >>>> directly code for DNA, however, despite this, "DNA is not the   
   >>>> primary or privileged source of biological causation".   
   >>>   
   >>> DNA does not directly code for protein, and protein does not directly   
   >>> code for DNA. At this time life exists as cells.  The vast majority   
   >>> of living things on earth are still microbial single cells.  Microbes   
   >>> continue to be the greatest success story of life on earth.  Humans   
   >>> continue to house more microbes than human cells for every human   
   >>> body. It is why I have joked about the designer being really ticked   
   >>> off when he comes back and finds that some rogue lifeform is using   
   >>> soap, disinfectants and antibiotics to kill trillions of his beloved   
      
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