From: 69jpil69@gmail.com   
      
   On Mon, 26 Jan 2026 16:31:39 +1100, MarkE  wrote:   
      
   >On 26/01/2026 3:20 pm, jillery wrote:   
   >> On Mon, 26 Jan 2026 00:20:57 +1100, MarkE  wrote:   
   >>    
   >>> On 25/01/2026 6:44 pm, jillery wrote:   
   >>>> On Sun, 25 Jan 2026 02:42:25 -0500, jillery <69jpil69@gmail.com>   
   >>>> wrote:   
   >>>>   
   >>>>> On Sun, 25 Jan 2026 16:13:45 +1100, MarkE  wrote:   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>>> On 25/01/2026 3:49 pm, jillery wrote:   
   >>>>>>> On Sat, 24 Jan 2026 22:28:20 +1100, MarkE  wrote:   
   >>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>> On 24/01/2026 1:54 am, John Harshman wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>> On 1/22/26 6:15 PM, MarkE wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>> On 23/01/2026 1:31 am, John Harshman wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>> On 1/21/26 9:18 PM, MarkE wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> On 22/01/2026 3:22 am, John Harshman wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/20/26 1:36 PM, MarkE wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 20/01/2026 3:48 am, Mark Isaak wrote:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No. I'm observing that the difference between chimps and   
   humans   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in terms of what either can and have accomplished is self-   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evidently profoundly greater for humans than chimps:   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> civilisation, spaceflight, surgery, symphonies,   
   semiconductors,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> string theory, and sandwiches.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be sure, human knowledge and achievement has been a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cumulative, cultural process, but even that relies on the   
   innate   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capacity of individuals.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regardless of how we might quantify this difference, it is   
   very   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> large and therefore needs explanation.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would you agree?   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What you're saying, and I agree, is that the substantive   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> differences between humans and chimps, at least the differences   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which account for humans' great achievements, are (1) language,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including especially written language, and (2) cultural   
   cohesion.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where I disagree with you is your claim that those two   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> differences are extreme. First, chimpanzees already have   
   culture.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't see any qualitative differences between human and chip   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> culture besides language. And language is probably not a   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genetically huge difference. Chimps already have verbal   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> communication. To reach human level, the common ancestor would   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need a few (like maybe half a dozen or less) advantageous   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mutations for recursive grammar, maybe a couple more for other   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aspects of our language, and a few more to adapt our vocal   
   tract.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This should not require several millions of years.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We have very different intuition on what's involved with the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> creation of new and substantial functional complexity. To   
   suggest   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that handful of mutations could produce the change you describe   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggests to me that you've never created something with new and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> substantial functional complexity yourself (not intended as an   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>> insult, but an explanation of our very different perspectives).   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> And yet, there it is. 90% of your genome is junk, and the 10%   
   that   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't is a bit less than 1% different from a chimpanzee genome,   
   and   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> the bulk of those differences have no effect on phenotype.   
   Finally,   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> the rest of the cell that you appeal to is mostly identical   
   between   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> humans and chimps too, and the differences are dependent on the   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>> genome.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> You may have (understandably) lost track of my original point,   
   which   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> is exactly what you're inferring: that the genome alone,   
   especially   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> the claimed 10% functional portion of 80MB, is nowhere near enough   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> information to specify an entity with the massive functional   
   >>>>>>>>>>>> complexity of a human.   
   >>>>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>>> That's not at all what I'm inferring. Note again: the rest of the   
   >>>>>>>>>>> cell that you appeal to is mostly identical between humans and   
   >>>>>>>>>>> chimps, and the differences are dependent on the genome. If you're   
   >>>>>>>>>>> interested in what makes a human, as opposed to a chimp, it's those   
   >>>>>>>>>>> few functional genetic differences that count.   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> Both these assertions are contended:   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> - "the rest of the cell that you appeal to is mostly identical   
   between   
   >>>>>>>>>> humans and chimps"   
   >>>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>> My deduction is that it's not. On what basis do you say that it is?   
   >>>>>>>>>   
   >>>>>>>>>     From what do you make this deduction? The bulk of a cell is   
   involved in   
   >>>>>>>>> basic metabolism and housekeeping, with a function identical over a   
   >>>>>>>>> broad range of organisms. Development likewise is very similar   
   between   
      
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