From: jtem01@gmail.com   
      
     RonO wrote:   
      
   > The Mungo man DNA was found to be contamination with European modern   
   > human DNA.  They literally sequenced the LM3 insert into Chr 11.   
      
   Keep in mind I hit "Reply" by mistake. I misread your subject line   
   and reacted first, read the post second...   
      
      
   First, nobody claimed that it was contamination. What they claimed   
   is that they were unable to extract DNA and then "Concluded" that the   
   DNA previously extracted was contamination. But that's not possible.   
      
   Our mtDNA is rather fast-changing, relatively speaking. But captured   
   inside of Chromosome 11 it can no longer change as rapidly as mtDNA   
   can. Instead, it's mutating at the same (vastly slower) rate of the   
   Chromosome 11. Which has to result in differences between Mungo Man   
   and the Chromosome 11 insert. And those differences do exist.   
      
   The two do not match. Mungo Man was separated from the mutation event   
   by a *Very* long time, going by conventional "Dating." His most popular   
   dating is placed at some 40k years, this particular line is usually   
   described at maybe 800,000 years ("less than 1 million")...   
      
   We would absolutely positively need to see differences -- representing   
   all the millennia as well as the differing mutation rates -- if this   
   Mungo Man mtDNA is real, AND WE DO SEE THESE DIFFERENCES!   
      
   > This   
   > mtDNA insert was obviously made in the ancestors of modern humans while   
   > they were still in Africa   
      
   No, nobody believes that. It's definitely a Eurasian line, probably from   
   Sundaland or maybe even China, but you can't claim otherwise without   
   rejecting the entirety of mtDNA based "Science."   
      
   I mean, there's plenty of mtDNA lines and plenty of claims on where &   
   when they originated, and all that "Science" has to be wrong OR the   
   LM3 line is Eurasian.   
      
   Science is consistent. Once you smash consistency it stops being   
   science. So, it's Eurasian or there is no science-based ANYTHING on   
   human mtDNA lineages, but the "Eurasian Origins" was not determined   
   by some "Different" method than used elsewhere.   
      
   > The Africans took that chr 11   
   > sequence with them when they left Africa around 60,000 years ago.  The   
   > LM3 insert is not of Neanderthal origin.   
      
   Again, no. This is science, not religion. You can't reject HOW it is   
   determined to be Eurasian in  /Just/  the case of the Chromosome   
   11/LM3 line. It's found in Africa in very low frequency.   
      
   >> Well. BASED ON HOME THESE THINGS ARE DETERMINED it's Eurasian. BASED   
   >> ON EVERYTHING CLAIMED ABOUT DNA IN ALL OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES it's an   
   >> Eurasian mtDNA line, it originates in Asia and it was carried into   
   >> Africa, where it appears at a significantly reduced frequency...   
   >   
   > The researchers that produced the original Mungo sequences had their   
   > sample contaminated with DNA that was traced back to modern human   
   > individuals of European descent.   
      
   That isn't true at all.   
      
   Mungo Man's mtDNA is different. It's not a match to what is found in   
   any modern humans, within their Chromosome 11. AND the researchers   
   you speak of claim to have found NOTHING WHAT SO EVER!   
      
   They said that they couldn't retrieve ANY samples.   
      
   >> I mean, "Out of Africa" happened but relatively recently. There were   
   >> severe "Climate Catastrophes," Toba being the worst (by far) and Africa   
   >> was well suited to survive. Europe wasn't. Sundaland was Ground Zero   
   >> in the case of Toba!   
   >   
   > When the population bottle neck occurred keeps getting pushed further   
   > and further back in time.   
      
   No. Toba happened between 70,000 and 80,000 years ago -- without the   
   Google, I want to say 74,000 is the popular dating.   
      
   There were other bottle necks, but speaking SPECIFICALLY about the   
   one that allowed the "Out of Africa" expansion, it was Toba.   
      
   Toba killed off most of humanity. The population that did best is the   
   African population, and it bounced back the fastest. This allowed an   
   expansion into the vacuum left behind by Toba.   
      
   > It is now believed that it occurred a couple   
   > hundred thousand years ago and both African and non African populations   
   > were affected by the same event.   
      
   Everyone is always impacted by the same event, when we are talking   
   about climate catastrophes.   
      
   Sundaland would have been it, we'd all be speaking of the "Out of   
   Sundaland" expansion EXCEPT that Toba was right there!  They were   
   ground zero! But if Toba had been somewhere else they were positioned   
   perfectly to "Win" the population race.   
      
   THE WORST place to be after such an event is the northern hemisphere,   
   inland. THE BEST place to be is on the Equator, along the coast. But   
   everyone gets their cages rattled. Some just have far better odds of   
   succeeding than others...   
      
   > Neanderthals did not go extinct until   
   > around 30,000 years ago before the glacial maximum around 25,000 years   
   > ago.   
      
   Superficially, you can say that. But Neanderthals had been meeting   
   up with, interbreeding with so called "Moderns" for tens of   
   thousands of years at that point.   
      
   > They went extinct as conditions were getting worse.   
      
   Campi Flegrei killed them. There were some that clung on but that   
   is always the case with extinctions...   
      
      
   [continued in next message]   
      
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