XPost: aus.politics.guns, can.talk.guns, uk.politics.guns   
   From: nospam@anytime.com   
      
   "Bill Smith"  wrote in message   
   news:kro5s4tjfscri78c1d80b6frpmsmov5qq0@4ax.com...   
   > On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:10:35 +1100, "Blinky Bill"    
   > wrote:   
   >   
   >>   
   >>"Bill Smith"  wrote in message   
   >>news:vbl5s4ln0mksj7mcfdhtdf2q04t06our6p@4ax.com...   
   >>>   
   >>>>   
   >>>>>The bad guys have guns and they always will. They are a   
   >>>>> necessary tool of the trade   
   >>>>   
   >>>>Rubbish - plenty of criminals don't own guns, so they aren't necessary.   
   >>>   
   >>> If they don't need them why do so many use them?   
   >>   
   >>Can't you understand English or are you dazzled by your own rhetoric. If   
   >>they were necessary, every criminal would have them - that's what   
   >>necessary   
   >>means - they wouldn't be criminals unless they had guns.   
   >>   
   >>   
   >>> The drug dealers and   
   >>> gang bangers need them very much if they are to survive.   
   >>   
   >>Are you trying to claim that every criminal is a drug-dealer or   
   >>gang-banger?   
   >   
   > No nor did I imply that, but they are responsible for the vast   
   > majority of murders   
      
   Evidence please - the FBI thinks otherwise. In fact they found that less   
   than a quarter of homicides were associated with ANY other felony or gang   
   activity.   
      
   >and other violent crime that takes place in the   
   > US.   
   >   
   >>>Longevity in   
   >>> that business doesn't seem to be very good, but taking the long view   
   >>> doesn't seem very prevalent in that crowd.   
   >>   
   >>Whatever.   
   >>   
   >>   
   >>>   
   >>>>> and they will find a way to get them no matter what.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>Very likely - but it is just plain stupid to make it easy for them by   
   >>>>failing to secure the guns adequately. and plain stupid to allow   
   >>>>untracked   
   >>>>sales.   
   >>>   
   >>> I agree. We have background checks on every legal gun sale in   
   >>> California where I live. Of course the bad guys just ignore that.   
   >>   
   >>Then either the laws are inadequate or they are not enforced adequately.   
   >   
   > Would you be willing to live in a police state for less crime?   
      
   I live in a place with a much lower firearm crime rate than the US, and it   
   is not a police state. I certainly wouldn't want to live in the US where I   
   would expect to have around 4 times the chance of being a victim of homicide   
   and about 20 times the chance of being shot dead. To you that may be utopia,   
   but not for me.   
      
   > That   
   > may well be necessary for, as you put it, adequate enforcement.   
      
   Not necessary, not where I live.   
      
   > IIRC,   
   > the Soviet Union didn't have,   
      
   yadda yadda - red herring snip rant   
      
   > As I pointed   
   > out with the map of my town, all this violence seems to be confined to   
   > certain neighborhoods. All the large cities in the US have them.   
      
   Newsflash - most if not all large cities in the world have them. So the US   
   is is no different to most other countries in that regard.   
      
   >   
   >   
   >>> My   
   >>> gun safe is in a place that one can't easily apply leverage to either   
   >>> steal it or break it open and it's camouflaged. No evidence is lying   
   >>> around my house to indicate to an intruder that guns are present   
   >>> there. No gun magazines, targets, empty brass, that sort of thing. My   
   >>> reloading equipment and supplies are at my business and no guns are   
   >>> kept there. If I could stand the sight of it, I'd put an Obama/Biden   
   >>> placard in the window to further put them off the scent. So this does   
   >>> matter to me and I do take precautions.   
   >>>   
   >>>>>The criminal misuse of firearms is here to stay whether   
   >>>>> they can be legally owned or not.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>And there are countries in the world where misuse is restricted to a   
   >>>>very   
   >>>>low   
   >>>>level compared to the US.   
   >>>   
   >>> And there are others with much worse gun use and much stricter laws   
   >>> than we have.   
   >>   
   >>Indeed  - but I would be ashamed to think that the murder rate in the   
   >>country that I live in is only exceeded by mostly third world shitholes,   
   >>and   
   >>in fact many third world shitholes have lower murder rates. Another   
   >>country   
   >>which is pretty bad is Mexico where the drug gangs get their guns through   
   >>licensed US dealers and smuggled in from a place with lax gun laws, the   
   >>US.   
   >>   
   >>   
   >   
   > You have a cite for that?   
      
   Hundreds - here's a few.   
      
   http://www.ice.gov/pi/nr/0808/080826sanantonio.htm   
      
   http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/03/26/gun.smuggling/index.html   
      
   http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/international-news/portfol   
   o/2008/06/16/Examining-the-US-Mexico-Gun-Trade   
      
   http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/us/20guns.html?ref=us   
      
   That one is a lulu - what the gun-dealers are doing is legal, which means   
   the   
   laws are probably inadequate.   
      
   > I mean besides Dianne Feinstein   
      
   OFCS stop your rhetoric and ranting and at least try to have a rational   
   discussion. How much of these rants do you think I bother to read?   
      
   And I have no idea who she is and I don't know why you are trying to divert   
   the discussion to her. Can't you just concentrate on the subject being   
   discussed and facts relevant to it.   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)