XPost: aus.politics.guns, can.talk.guns, uk.politics.guns   
   From: trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au   
      
   "10x" <10x@teluös.net> wrote in message   
   news:3hvfs4hv83larbqrrb51tk75qmr35larnr@4ax.com...   
   > On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 08:42:23 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"   
   >  wrote:   
   >   
   >>   
   >>   
   >>   
   >>"10x" <10x@teluös.net> wrote in message   
   >>news:b6i9s4lsaf6so7lq3ks9ctb9crg16drjiq@4ax.com...   
   >>> On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 23:02:15 +1100, "Blinky Bill"    
   >>> wrote:   
   >>>   
   >>>>>   
   >>>>> The exisiting laws are entirely adequate.   
   >>>>   
   >>>>What is your evidence for that? The US gun homicide rate certainly   
   >>>>suggests   
   >>>>otherwise.   
   >>>   
   >>> Murder is against the law in the U.S.A.   
   >>   
   >>**Well that law doesn't work. Perhaps it should be removed from the law   
   >>books. Is that your inference? Or are you trying to say something else?   
   >>Perhaps you could elaborate.   
   >   
   > My point is that folks willing to break the law and taboo against   
   > murder are not going to care about a gun law or method of murdering   
   > others.  Firearms do not cause the intent to murder.   
      
   **No. Your point was clear. [To paraphrase] You claim that "20,000" gun   
   control laws don't work, so they should be dispensed with. I used your   
   specious claim to suggest that you should treat the laws surrounding   
   homicide the same way. People commit homicide. Therefore (in your mind) laws   
   which make homicide illegal are useless.   
      
   You now see the error of your suggestion.   
      
   >   
   >>> Folks who have the intent to commit murder don't really care what   
   >>> method they use.   
   >>   
   >>**Perhaps. In the US, however, they prefer to use a gun.   
   >>   
   > You are quite correct they do perfer to use a gun in the U.S.   
   > However they also use other methods when firearms are not available.   
      
   **Do they? In EVERY case? Prove it.   
      
   > Canada has strict controls on firearms.   
   > Jamaica has a complete ban on firearms.   
   > Folks still get murdered in both countries.   
      
   **They do, indeed. Australia has strict controls on firearms and around 10%   
   the gun related homicide rate that the US has. The UK has strict controls on   
   firearms and around 5% the gun related homicide rate that the US has. See a   
   pattern here?   
      
   >   
   >>> The U.S.A. has over 20,000 laws restricting the use of firearms   
   >>   
   >>**Really? That many? Got a cite for that? However, just to humour you for   
   >>the moment, you should understand that 20,000 weak, haphazard, poorly   
   >>regulated and just plain nonsensical gun control laws are not a   
   >>replacement   
   >>for a dozen well thought out, tough, sane and properly policed gun control   
   >>laws. Perhaps the US could learn from places like Australia, where the gun   
   >>control laws are tough, sane, well policed and homogeneously applied   
   >>accros   
   >>the entire nation.   
   >   
   > Where they don't work, same as Canada.   
      
   **You neglected to answer my questions. I will repeat them, so that you may   
   answer:   
      
   Really? That many? Got a cite for that?   
      
   > In Canada the firearms laws are the same across the nation, yet crime   
   > rates with firearms vary from region to region - totally unrealted to   
   > the number of firearms in each region.  If the gun laws worked, the   
   > crime rate would be the same in all regions.   
      
   **I said (emphasis added):   
      
   Perhaps the US could learn from places like AUSTRALIA, where the gun control   
   laws are tough, sane, well policed and homogeneously applied accros the   
   entire nation.   
      
   I did not say: "Canada". I said "AUSTRALIA". Canada's gun control laws are   
   weak and inneffective, compared to the suite of laws employed in Australia.   
      
   >   
   >>> including a federal law that prohibits possession of a firearm by a   
   >>> convicted felon.  Many of the murders commited by all means in the   
   >>> U.S.A. are by felons with histories of violence.   
   >>   
   >>**Of course. Thanks to the weak, haphazard and poorly regulated gun   
   >>control   
   >>laws in the US, it is a trivial exercise for a felon to buy a gun from a   
   >>secondary source. Here's sort of how it might go:   
   >>   
   >>Felon: "I'd like to buy your second hand gun please."   
   >>Gun seller: " Are you a convicted felon?"   
   >>Felon: "Nope."   
   >>Gun seller: "Good. Here's your gun. Have fun."   
   >   
   > Do you have any numbers on the rate at which convicted felons do this   
   > in the U.S.A.?   
      
   **Since the US has no effective controls on the secondary gun market, no.   
   Clearly, since it can happen (easily), then it does happen.   
      
   > Or are you speculating?   
      
   **Nope. Just based on fact, reason and logic.   
      
   Now, how's about you answer the questions, you tried to avoid?   
      
      
   --   
   Trevor Wilson   
   www.rageaudio.com.au   
      
   --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05   
    * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)