Forums before death by AOL, social media and spammers... "We can't have nice things"
|    talk.politics    |    General politics discussion    |    44,666 messages    |
[   << oldest   |   < older   |   list   |   newer >   |   newest >>   ]
|    Message 44,239 of 44,666    |
|    dolf to dolf    |
|    Re: DOLF eats hagelslag (19/30)    |
|    09 Jul 25 16:49:54    |
      [continued from previous message]              >>>>>>> natural necessity is referred only to appearances and freedom       >>>>>>> only to things in themselves, then no contradiction arises if       >>>>>>> both kinds of causality are assumed or conceded equally, however       >>>>>>> difficult or impossible it may be to make causality of the latter       >>>>>>> kind conceivable.       >>>>>>>       >>>>>>> Within appearance, every effect is an event, or something that       >>>>>>> happens in time; the effect must, in accordance with the       >>>>>>> universal law of nature, be preceded by a determination of the       >>>>>>> causality of its cause (a state of the cause), from which the       >>>>>>> effect follows in accordance with a constant law. But this       >>>>>>> determination of the cause to causality must also be something       >>>>>>> that occurs or takes place; the cause must have begun to act, for       >>>>>>> otherwise no sequence in time could be thought between it and the       >>>>>>> effect. [IDEA #344] Both the effect and the causality of the       >>>>>>> cause would have always existed. Therefore the determination of       >>>>>>> the cause to act must also have arisen among the appearances, and       >>>>>>> so it must, like its effect, be an event, which again must have       >>>>>>> its cause, and so on, and hence natural necessity must be the       >>>>>>> condition in accordance with which efficient causes are       >>>>>>> determined. Should, by contrast, freedom be a property of certain       >>>>>>> causes of appearances, then that freedom must, in relation to the       >>>>>>> appearances as events, be a faculty of starting those events from       >>>>>>> itself (sponte - spontaneous), i.e., without the causality of the       >>>>>>> cause itself having to begin, and hence without need for any       >>>>>>> other ground to determine its beginning. But then the cause, as       >>>>>>> to its causality, would not have to be subject to temporal       >>>>>>> determinations of its state, i.e., would not have to be       >>>>>>> appearance at all, i.e., would have to be taken for a thing in       >>>>>>> itself, and only the effects would have to be taken for appearances.       >>>>>>>       >>>>>>> NOTE: The idea of freedom has its place solely in the relation of       >>>>>>> the *INTELLECTUAL* (des Intellektuellen), as cause, to the       >>>>>>> appearance, as effect. Therefore we cannot bestow freedom upon       >>>>>>> matter, in consideration of the unceasing activity by which it       >>>>>>> fills its space, even though this activity occurs through an       >>>>>>> inner principle. We can just as little find any concept of       >>>>>>> freedom to fit a purely intelligible being, e.g., God, insofar as       >>>>>>> his action is immanent. For his action, although independent of       >>>>>>> causes determining it from outside, nevertheless is determined in       >>>>>>> his eternal reason, hence in the divine nature. Only if something       >>>>>>> should begin through an action, hence the effect be found in the       >>>>>>> time series, and so in the sensible world (e.g., the beginning of       >>>>>>> the world), does the question arise of whether the causality of       >>>>>>> the cause must itself also have a beginning, or whether the cause       >>>>>>> can originate an effect without its causality itself having a       >>>>>>> beginning. In the first case the concept of this causality is a       >>>>>>> concept of natural necessity, in the second of freedom. From this       >>>>>>> the reader will see that, since I have explained freedom as the       >>>>>>> faculty to begin an event by oneself, I have exactly hit that       >>>>>>> concept which is the problem of metaphysics.       >>>>>>>       >>>>>>> If this sort of influence of intelligible beings on appearances       >>>>>>> can be thought without contradiction, then natural necessity will       >>>>>>> indeed attach to every connection of cause and effect in the       >>>>>>> sensible world, and yet that cause which is itself not an       >>>>>>> appearance (though it underlies appearance) will still be       >>>>>>> entitled to freedom, and therefore nature and freedom will be       >>>>>>> attributable without contradiction to the very same thing, but in       >>>>>>> different respects, in the one case as appearance, in the other       >>>>>>> as a thing in itself. We have in us a faculty that not only       >>>>>>> stands in connection with its subjectively determining grounds,       >>>>>>> which are the natural causes of its [IDEA #345] actions – and       >>>>>>> thus far is the faculty of a being which itself belongs to       >>>>>>> appearances – but that also is related to objective grounds that       >>>>>>> are mere ideas, insofar as these ideas can determine this       >>>>>>> faculty, a connection that is expressed by ought.       >>>>>>>       >>>>>>> This faculty is called reason, and insofar as we are considering       >>>>>>> a being (the human being) solely as regards this objectively       >>>>>>> determinable reason, this being cannot be considered as a being       >>>>>>> of the senses; rather, the aforesaid property is the property of       >>>>>>> a thing in itself, and the possibility of that property – namely,       >>>>>>> how the ought, which has never yet happened, can determine the       >>>>>>> activity of this being and can be the cause of actions whose       >>>>>>> effect is an appearance in the sensible world – we cannot       >>>>>>> comprehend at all. Yet the causality of reason with respect to       >>>>>>> effects in the sensible world would nonetheless be freedom,       >>>>>>> insofar as objective grounds, which are themselves ideas, are       >>>>>>> taken to be determining with respect to that causality. For the       >>>>>>> action of that causality would in that case not depend on any       >>>>>>> subjective, hence also not on any temporal conditions, and would       >>>>>>> therefore also not depend on the natural law that serves to       >>>>>>> determine those conditions, because grounds of reason provide the       >>>>>>> rule for actions universally, from principles, without influence       >>>>>>> from the circumstances of time or place.       >>>>>>>       >>>>>>> What I adduce here counts only as an example, for       >>>>>>> intelligibility, and does not belong necessarily to our question,       >>>>>>> which must be decided from mere concepts independently of       >>>>>>> properties that we find in the actual world.       >>>>>>>       >>>>>>> I can now say without contradiction: all actions of rational       >>>>>>> beings, insofar as they are appearances (are encountered in some       >>>>>>> experience or other), are subject to natural necessity; but the       >>>>>>> very same actions, with respect only to the rational subject and       >>>>>>> its faculty of acting in accordance with bare reason, are free.       >>>>>>> What, then, is required for natural necessity? Nothing more than       >>>>>>> the determinability of every event in the sensible world       >>>>>>> according to constant laws, and therefore a relation to a cause       >>>>>>> within appearance; whereby the underlying thing in itself and its       >>>>>>> causality remain unknown. But I say: the law of nature remains,       >>>>>>> whether the rational being be a cause of effects in the sensible       >>>>>>> world through reason and hence through freedom, or whether that       >>>>>>> being does not determine such effects through rational grounds.       >>>>>>> For if the first is the case, the action takes place according to       >>>>>>> maxims whose effect within appearance will always conform to       >>>>>>> constant laws; if the second is the case, and the action does not       >>>>>>> take [IDEA #346] place according to principles of reason, then it       >>>>>>> is subject to the empirical laws of sensibility, and in both       >>>>>>> cases the effects are connected according to constant laws; but              [continued in next message]              --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05        * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)    |
[   << oldest   |   < older   |   list   |   newer >   |   newest >>   ]
(c) 1994, bbs@darkrealms.ca